Role of in-laws:WOMEN!! Lets change the unjust society rules
2005-08-24
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS
DEAR LADIES, i read thru most of ur msgs. and I have heard all the sad realities of my married friends, my relatives, have exeprienced atrocities myself in life.
infact, for a long time, i wanted to do something for uplifment of women in our society....i still am thinking how to do it.....I NEED VIEWS / IDEAS / SUGGESTIONS OF ALL THE WOMEN HERE, who want to help the women out of goodwill...and those who truly feel that their position in this world is pathetic....
first of all, we all know that \";aurat hi aurat ki dushman hai\";
secondly, as is evident from all your mails and as we all know that husbands behave differently when they are with their parents or relatives (they can be very nice with you in their absence, but something really goes wrong with them when they are around their parents)
We also know that every girl is happy before marriage, and never after ( yes...i mean it...all of them are unhappy)
In our society, subtle but really strategically smart rules are taught to us right from birth... to turn us into what we are....and hence, easily rule on us (a girl should be a good cook, a good housekeeper, a devoted mother and wife, \";aadmi ke dil ka raasta hai uska pet....a woman should be like a mother to her husband in the day and a prostitute in the night....husband ke hi kushi main aurat ki khushi hai...pati devta hota hai, pati poojniya hai\";.... forgiving and patient hona chahiye...bado se zabaan nahi ladaate....blah...blah)
Wives are actually glorified maids and prostitutes, who take care of the house, be emotional support for husbands, take care of children (we build the society), and give physical pleasure to husbands.
The list is endless....
But have we ever stopped and wondered why is our situation so? Why are there certain \";done things\"; for women, certain roles only for us, certain duties, restrictions, blah blah only for us....its coz we have allowed everyone to take us for granted...our ever-sweet, forgiving and patient nature is the cause.....and the biggest cause is....that we females are not united...we have been brainwashed right from childhood...we and boys are raised differently for a reason....and we never question that?
we just fight our own individual battles, are unnsuccessful...and then....when it comes to torment another woman, we don't remember what we had gone through, we don't support them...but we suddenly transform into the ever so notoriously evil...\";mother in laws\"; and \";sister in laws\";....
my point is....we need to raise woman's social position in our society...our position is really really lowly and pathetic....
who decided that its a woman's job alone to take care of the house, the kids, the meals, the daily chores, the 'bahu' work and traditions?? But we all accept it the as a \";god-given law\";...that's our fault.
all the women, be it the poorest to the richest...are discriminated against..
no wonder...when it is heard that a girl was raped coz she was walking all alone on the streets at night (whatever the time)...or that she was wearing an inviting dress...its said....\";so what else was she expecting??\";...why aren't our sons trained the other way round...why do they think its their right to pounce on a girl since she has broken the \";code\"; ...and we are allowed to be on a junglee prowl....? and rapes don't happen only in the day time....we have raised our sons and daughters wrong....absolutely wrong....by telling themthe same 'dakiyanoosi' society rules etc...unknowinlgy, we are carrying on with the tradition of women sorrows.
ladies...none of us are safe...that includes the daughters you'll give birth to...they too would have to bear the same atrocities like us and like the past women generations....if we don't act
remember....women are the ones who make a society... if you look carefully, you'll know its a fact.....(we give birth, we take care of the child, we impart first social virtues and values to our children, they learn from us first, and the from the rest of the world)... don't you think that unknowingly, we impart wrong knowledge to our sons and daughters by teaching the stupid society rules and certain stupid indian culture...roles of a man and a woman???
we have to stay united and we fight for our right of equality (pls...right of equality doesn't mean equal jobs, equal pay, women-reservations...its al bullshit....we need to see the real problem)....i'm talking about social equality...and by the way...our shastras, upnishads, vedas and epics...all have depicted the role of a woman in a shameless way...no wonder, in early imes a woman was not allowed to study upnishads, vedas etc....GO THROUGH WHAT's WRITTEN ABOUT WOMEN IN OUR SHASTRAS at http://www.hinduism.co.za/women.htm. Know where we stand in our glorious indian culture and society.... please... change all this.... if you respect yourself even a single bit....this is the indian heritage we are preserving and feeding our children with...and acting on it thinking....this is how a true indian woma should behave...ladis read it...and kow how respected are we in the indian culture
aren't we at fault when we don't question our parents when they allow one thing for the son and disallow the same for the daughter? Aren't we at fault when we allow our parents to give gifts-dowry at our weddings? Aren't we at fault when we let our parents perform the insane traditions of giving gifts etc at each and every occassion to ladka wallas? Arent't we at fault when we think its the done thing for the ladki walas to bear the wedding expenses (greeting the barat and dinner etc)...why? isn't it their son's marriage too? How can we allow our parents to think....nahi nahi...hum ladki waale hai, we can't to do this or that, we can't stay for long at the girl's place...and to top it all....we have no right in our family's inheritence...this too adds to the insecurities that women face...and the worst reason is....our forgiving nature...our so called \";bechaargi\"; ....our financial dependence..and our acceptance of our fate.
what i'm trying to say is...that the we need to uproot the real cause of our miseries...bring about a change in us first...become confident...see the real perspective...and fight for our rights...and stay united....AND BRING ABOUT A CHANGE IN THIS SOCIETY
i don't really know how to achieve this...have been thinking a lot...but there's one thing i know...poor follow the rich, low class follows the higher class....if the elite and educated women cannot protect themselves, then our society would not change....we need to change first then slowly, the society would change
but friends...as i said...i feel very agitated that we women go through so much, we have a thankless job profile in this world...and we are treated as maids nad prostitutes...we are just servants to men... (look at the roles defined for us in he society)..look at what you do at the end of the day...what have you been doing so far...have you never felt suffocated? felt its unfair... felt \";what lacks in me...i too am educated...talented...confident...then why should i do all this\";...why isn't it an equal responsibility of the man...why is he allowed to sit and fart in front of the couch while I keep the house clean, take care of the kids and e enjoys outside of the home ans inside too and then has the nerve to demand everything and judge you, if you fall short on the basis of a woman's duties? and then when the time comes to leave the in-laws or a tyrant husband...we are looked at with contempt...the society eyes us in dejection and even if our parents support us...we end up making them suffer...so most o us can't opt for either life death....
at the end of it ladies....we all know...that we all are sad....all of us...right froma 5 year old girl to the 70 year old woman...however rich or eductaed she might be....think about the reason....its the rules of society that we have so easily accepted for ourselves....
PLEASE ladies...lets discuss how can we put an end to this madness....what should be done to bring about this change in society... lets do something...lets start something, we are all educated here, come from good families, have some free time also, are intelligent enough, if we can't then wo can? and who will?
i know it starts from self first....so lets change ourselves first....but we cannot sit at that alone...we need to have concerted effort to uproot it together...and if we don't share our thoughts, ideas and views on this....and act on it and do something worthwhile to this effect...then its only a proof.....that WOMEN ONLY FIGHT THEIR OWN BATTLES...WOMEN CANNOT BE UNITED...AND the age old saying \";AURAT HI AURAT KI DUSHMAN HAI\";....
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DEAR LADIES, i read thru most of ur msgs. and I have heard all the sad realities of my married friends, my relatives, have exeprienced atrocities myself in life.
infact, for a long time, i wanted to do something for uplifment of women in our society....i still am thinking how to do it.....I NEED VIEWS / IDEAS / SUGGESTIONS OF ALL THE WOMEN HERE, who want to help the women out of goodwill...and those who truly feel that their position in this world is pathetic....
first of all, we all know that \";aurat hi aurat ki dushman hai\";
secondly, as is evident from all your mails and as we all know that husbands behave differently when they are with their parents or relatives (they can be very nice with you in their absence, but something really goes wrong with them when they are around their parents)
We also know that every girl is happy before marriage, and never after ( yes...i mean it...all of them are unhappy)
In our society, subtle but really strategically smart rules are taught to us right from birth... to turn us into what we are....and hence, easily rule on us (a girl should be a good cook, a good housekeeper, a devoted mother and wife, \";aadmi ke dil ka raasta hai uska pet....a woman should be like a mother to her husband in the day and a prostitute in the night....husband ke hi kushi main aurat ki khushi hai...pati devta hota hai, pati poojniya hai\";.... forgiving and patient hona chahiye...bado se zabaan nahi ladaate....blah...blah)
Wives are actually glorified maids and prostitutes, who take care of the house, be emotional support for husbands, take care of children (we build the society), and give physical pleasure to husbands.
The list is endless....
But have we ever stopped and wondered why is our situation so? Why are there certain \";done things\"; for women, certain roles only for us, certain duties, restrictions, blah blah only for us....its coz we have allowed everyone to take us for granted...our ever-sweet, forgiving and patient nature is the cause.....and the biggest cause is....that we females are not united...we have been brainwashed right from childhood...we and boys are raised differently for a reason....and we never question that?
we just fight our own individual battles, are unnsuccessful...and then....when it comes to torment another woman, we don't remember what we had gone through, we don't support them...but we suddenly transform into the ever so notoriously evil...\";mother in laws\"; and \";sister in laws\";....
my point is....we need to raise woman's social position in our society...our position is really really lowly and pathetic....
who decided that its a woman's job alone to take care of the house, the kids, the meals, the daily chores, the 'bahu' work and traditions?? But we all accept it the as a \";god-given law\";...that's our fault.
all the women, be it the poorest to the richest...are discriminated against..
no wonder...when it is heard that a girl was raped coz she was walking all alone on the streets at night (whatever the time)...or that she was wearing an inviting dress...its said....\";so what else was she expecting??\";...why aren't our sons trained the other way round...why do they think its their right to pounce on a girl since she has broken the \";code\"; ...and we are allowed to be on a junglee prowl....? and rapes don't happen only in the day time....we have raised our sons and daughters wrong....absolutely wrong....by telling themthe same 'dakiyanoosi' society rules etc...unknowinlgy, we are carrying on with the tradition of women sorrows.
ladies...none of us are safe...that includes the daughters you'll give birth to...they too would have to bear the same atrocities like us and like the past women generations....if we don't act
remember....women are the ones who make a society... if you look carefully, you'll know its a fact.....(we give birth, we take care of the child, we impart first social virtues and values to our children, they learn from us first, and the from the rest of the world)... don't you think that unknowingly, we impart wrong knowledge to our sons and daughters by teaching the stupid society rules and certain stupid indian culture...roles of a man and a woman???
we have to stay united and we fight for our right of equality (pls...right of equality doesn't mean equal jobs, equal pay, women-reservations...its al bullshit....we need to see the real problem)....i'm talking about social equality...and by the way...our shastras, upnishads, vedas and epics...all have depicted the role of a woman in a shameless way...no wonder, in early imes a woman was not allowed to study upnishads, vedas etc....GO THROUGH WHAT's WRITTEN ABOUT WOMEN IN OUR SHASTRAS at http://www.hinduism.co.za/women.htm. Know where we stand in our glorious indian culture and society.... please... change all this.... if you respect yourself even a single bit....this is the indian heritage we are preserving and feeding our children with...and acting on it thinking....this is how a true indian woma should behave...ladis read it...and kow how respected are we in the indian culture
aren't we at fault when we don't question our parents when they allow one thing for the son and disallow the same for the daughter? Aren't we at fault when we allow our parents to give gifts-dowry at our weddings? Aren't we at fault when we let our parents perform the insane traditions of giving gifts etc at each and every occassion to ladka wallas? Arent't we at fault when we think its the done thing for the ladki walas to bear the wedding expenses (greeting the barat and dinner etc)...why? isn't it their son's marriage too? How can we allow our parents to think....nahi nahi...hum ladki waale hai, we can't to do this or that, we can't stay for long at the girl's place...and to top it all....we have no right in our family's inheritence...this too adds to the insecurities that women face...and the worst reason is....our forgiving nature...our so called \";bechaargi\"; ....our financial dependence..and our acceptance of our fate.
what i'm trying to say is...that the we need to uproot the real cause of our miseries...bring about a change in us first...become confident...see the real perspective...and fight for our rights...and stay united....AND BRING ABOUT A CHANGE IN THIS SOCIETY
i don't really know how to achieve this...have been thinking a lot...but there's one thing i know...poor follow the rich, low class follows the higher class....if the elite and educated women cannot protect themselves, then our society would not change....we need to change first then slowly, the society would change
but friends...as i said...i feel very agitated that we women go through so much, we have a thankless job profile in this world...and we are treated as maids nad prostitutes...we are just servants to men... (look at the roles defined for us in he society)..look at what you do at the end of the day...what have you been doing so far...have you never felt suffocated? felt its unfair... felt \";what lacks in me...i too am educated...talented...confident...then why should i do all this\";...why isn't it an equal responsibility of the man...why is he allowed to sit and fart in front of the couch while I keep the house clean, take care of the kids and e enjoys outside of the home ans inside too and then has the nerve to demand everything and judge you, if you fall short on the basis of a woman's duties? and then when the time comes to leave the in-laws or a tyrant husband...we are looked at with contempt...the society eyes us in dejection and even if our parents support us...we end up making them suffer...so most o us can't opt for either life death....
at the end of it ladies....we all know...that we all are sad....all of us...right froma 5 year old girl to the 70 year old woman...however rich or eductaed she might be....think about the reason....its the rules of society that we have so easily accepted for ourselves....
PLEASE ladies...lets discuss how can we put an end to this madness....what should be done to bring about this change in society... lets do something...lets start something, we are all educated here, come from good families, have some free time also, are intelligent enough, if we can't then wo can? and who will?
i know it starts from self first....so lets change ourselves first....but we cannot sit at that alone...we need to have concerted effort to uproot it together...and if we don't share our thoughts, ideas and views on this....and act on it and do something worthwhile to this effect...then its only a proof.....that WOMEN ONLY FIGHT THEIR OWN BATTLES...WOMEN CANNOT BE UNITED...AND the age old saying \";AURAT HI AURAT KI DUSHMAN HAI\";....
BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS replied.
Dear ladies,
I LOVE THE FACT that so many of us really feel for the cause and are so ready and motivated to do something about it. THAT's THE SPIRIT!!! This is such an important beginning and lets continue this.
You guys have offered such valuable suggestions and ALL OF US SHOULD IMPLEMENT THEM at our own individual levels with full enthusiasm and guts.
As Q has suggested, lets talk about this issue and the solutions suggested here, whenever and wherever we get a chance, and motivate more and more people to fight for it. I'm sure we all have our set of friends and relatives. Why not make it a point of discussion amongst them and motivate them towards it?
In the meantime, lets think about what kind of a group activity should be started, which is a really effective and an 'in-the-face' activity. Ladies, don't think that we cannot start a movement on our own and that we are too insignificant or not the kinds who can do it. If we believe in ourselves, we can start a massive movement and change the world. WE JUST NEED TO BELIEVE THAT WE CAN.
The key is a consistent and a growing activity...not just a rally or a few meetings which starts with full glory and then looses its charm. We really need to THINK, what can we do colletively for spreading the message on a larger scale and....WHAT CAN WE DO TO BRING ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT.
REMEMEBER!!! A humble beginning is all we need.
silence replied. I tried to offer my thoughts about compromise for the weaker ones. In all my life this is the first time I ever stood up for anything and I was beat down from the begining. I owe you all an appoligy for my temper... Before that day I never even knew I had it in me.... But you negate EVERYTHING I say and I never did that to you. We talk of solutions and we can't agree. I dont know if we can agree on the problems either. I really felt picked on and I see now that if ever I intend to join a cause it must be with the knowledge that a woman knows best... and it seems that woman is everyone but me... Thats fine but I would have thought you'd at least listen to my ideas rather than trying to terminate them as not active enough...
You must believe me when I say i am sorry for the outburst. It completely ruined any hope I had of someone seeing it with any merit because I have shamed my words. Sorry but it hurt to know that the ones who are saying we must support each other are the very ones who have abused me of my self faith and value in my own ideas.
I thought the bigger picture was made up of smaller ones, I thought if we all added our small piece it would join to make a strong & wonderful thing but you dont want that you want your big picture painted exactly as you want it. I see that now... Sorry it took me so long... I just thought I might be of some help... Not so and I thank you for showing me this.
I shall wish you all the best in fighting for equality. I myself will go back to what I was and am... I can see that there is no place for me. Either among women or men... At least the men are honest about it
RR replied. Hi Girls,
dont think i am preaching or something.. but if we are here to find a solution lets not criticize each other. Off course we dont beleive that everybody will agree with our views.. Hey it is not possible for even God to make everybody happy. But, please lets not say bad words about each other and defeat the whole purpose of the mail in the first place.
The whole point that we need to agree to is: if we keep giving in to the injustice it will never stop.
and not giving in doesnt mean that we fight.. but we can still say strongly that \";it is against my principles and i will not do it or support it\";.
think till when do we want people in india to fear of having a baby girl. Till when do we want a bahu to be in fear of losing her marriage or life or her valuables or dear things.Till when do we want our parents to just keep giving and themselves live \";man maarke\"; because they have to marry off their girl and then keep giving gifts to her and her in-laws. Till when do we want the girls parents to ask permission of her husband and in-laws to invite their own child to their home. Till when do we want the well earning girl to want to give some gifts to her parents or siblings and be criticized for that.
Its high time for all this to stop. and nobody else will do it but us. our parents also deserve the same respect and so do we.
BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS replied. Dear Q and other ladies,
I am really glad that there are balanced people like you and others like 'no' 'rr' 'another dil' and 'prumessence' who can distinguish between 'self worth' and 'selfish'... and see the things the way they are... and are not disillusioned. i think that's the first step... 'self realisation'.
We're asking for equality and it'll not be handed over to us on a silver platter...But some people on this board think that we're talking about taking drastic measures like divorce, or having fights in our household all the time over nothing. Not at all!!! We don't want that. all we're saying is that may be there's a way where we can make the society treat us more like a human being. For that, first, WE WILL have to realise our self-worth, we would need to respect ourselves as human beings and not attempt at becoming demi-gods!! we need to have the confidence and channelise the 'women strength' some ladies have mentioned here to eradicate the ever prevalent social evil....
And as some women here have pointed out that some women are not very bold in standing up for their rights, there are some women who are strong and others are weak. Correct. Therefore, I think it becomes the duty of the bold and the strong women to make the weak women bolder by supporting them...they should give them the confidence in themselves. Two words of support would do wonders for a woman who has somehow managed the courage to stand-up for her rigths...believe me.
Secondly, even the ones who are not strong can help...by supporting the bold women from the back. And by not criticising them at what they are doing.
Thirdly, the women who think they can't stand-up for themselves and want to continue the way they had been.... need to stop 'chastising' the women who have have the courage to stand-up. We already know that we would not get support from most of the men...so the least we can do is, support our kind..if not that...then atleast...we should not condemn them.
And believe me, i again emphasise, unity has always been the key to everyone's success. each nation got their independence by unity, and by standing up for their rights....not by enduring enslavement...where would that get you???
Again, we're not lamenting the women who follow the policy of being 'wise', so please refrain from reacting to the following thoughts...coz again...that would not serve any purpose. We are not commenting on the ladies who do it, but on the line of thought which leads them to do it and hence, carry on the age-old atrocious tradiitons, which they unknowingly contribute to.
The idea is to understand the root of our problem... because the fact that some intelligent and educated women choose to follow this policy...there MIGHT be a merit in that school of thought...which some of us, who are trying to fight for the cause...think is the root cause of women miseries...we call it being 'disillusioned'.
In a marriage, the purpose is not to make only one person happy...but to make each other happy. a one-way relationship doesn't last long, contrary to the popular 'wise women' belief....may be that's their way of keeping things going and happy, but do they stop and think think how harmful is that for the society as a whole?
and they do all these things, without realising it. They look down upon the women who don't agree with them. 'apne rang mein hi dhaalna chahtey hai'... they always teach....if you can't fight them....join them...and most women do that...they give up...and some of us who don't...are immediately labeled as 'selfish', 'feminists'....
some women even say...hahaha...'we don't deserve to be mothers!!'..how insensitive is that?...and all that just because we disagree with them...and they immediately jump to the conclusion that we suggest mindless fights and divorces to accomplish this task...
While the 'wise women' are happy and content on the surface, may be justifying their actions to themselves each day and they really believe that they have made it in life...by being an excellent wife (which means babying the hubby around and hence, spoiling him bad), by being an ideal DIL (which means giving in to demands - society specific demands or otherwise- and hence carrying on the age-old traditions), by being amazing mothers (by taking ALL the responsibilities coz may be the husband dear is thought of as incompetent, and it is believed falsely that fatherhood cannot equate motherhood. 'Wise women' take pride in monopolising a parent's responsibilities coz that is a proof for their dying souls of good motherhood-an overstated claim...why? don't fathers love their children? just because women give birth doesn't make fathers any less of a parent!! isn't that a very unjust claim that we women propagate? infact, it boomerangs at us later. What right do we have to think that mothers are superior to fathers in love for their own flesh and blood? Fathers are given such a raw deal right from the beginning, that they feel that there is no way they can love and take care of their own child better than their wives!!
And since the 'wise women' make such wonderful human beings of themselves...demi gods infact...they think all the pain and injustice is worth the effort....while it might keep the life without any problems or turbulence, but can these women claim that they have no turbulence inside themselves also? can they really claim it doesn't hurt them when they do so much out of love, feelings, kindness, politeness and above all... happiness... and when they need a fraction of the same from their spouse or family, they are not given even that much? I'm sure it hurts and I'm sure it happens to all those nice women who go about their duties happily...don't we need some love, care, nurturing, pampering once in a while? And the reality is - We feel sooooooo bad saying this....'we need love, care, nurturing, pampering as often as anyone else'....and if these women say that we would impart the right kind of values to their sons and daughters...i'm, not too sure if it would be the thinking they are living by, or the thinking which is required to bring about the change in this society. coz if they would teach the same rules they are living with...then it just doesn't help...coz it means carrying on of a wrong tradition....and if they plan to teach the rules which we are talking about (that is standing up for one's self-respect, equality and rights in every field)....then why are they living the way they are???? and above all... why do they expect their children to do something that they themselves couldn't or can't?
Ladies, our problem is that we immediately jump at the other woman who is trying to think or do something which is out of tradition...even when they acknowledge that the traditions are wrong and unjust....another problem is...that when we see that so many women have failed in their attempts...we assume that thats is the natural course of action...and hence, even they are bound to follow the suit coz they are helpless....we assume that we are weak...how far can we fight?...true...every individual is weak if he is alone...isn't it? wouldn't it be nice when you support a woman full throttle when you see her fight for injustice (at home, at work, in general)...it so much adds to her confidence...and then who knows...may be she wins too!!! and all that would have happened...just because...you didn't try to teach her the 'weakness' at her time of need...you backed her ....you spoke in her tone and justified her cause...for a change....you didn't 'chastise' her...
think about it...how many times have you done it? support a woman completely when she really needed you?
And how many times have you compassionately listened and listened to her problems, empathised with her, may be added your own list of problems also during the discussion....and then later just said...\";kya kar saktey hai...aissa hi hota hai yahan par\";...or said...\";why don't you please your husband a little more, be more forgiving, understanding, hear him out, bear it....you need to be the wise one, he can't be\";....or be more compassionate with in-laws etc...or said...\";this i how our indian society works...we have to do it\";...
aren't we all hypocrites? when we have to bear something, we cry in a corner. when we see another woman going thru the same thing, we don't support her, saying...this is how our society is!!!!
and even worse...we enjoy just talking about our problems, when somebody says lets do something about it...we immediately say...\";we don't want quarrels in our household\";
Ladies, lets not cricize the women who want to stand up, lets support and help each-other....again...lets attempt at being united
and atleast acknowledge...that yes....we have a problem, and we have contributed to it...
WE need to change...
We need to get together....and do something about it
silence replied. I think it may just be possible that you've taken my comment slightly out of context \";be self reliant girls\"; and for the shock you felt at it I am incredibly sorry... I am also sorry that you feel that in NOT FAILING as a mother wife and DIL I fall into a category that you can not comprehend.
Have you really bothered to read many of the posts here? Most women ask for advice and freely admit to not following it. Why not? For many reasons and each has her own justification. It is all well and good to say what people should and shouldn't be doing to change things but the point is WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES and although some of them are rediculous we can't ignore a great lot of them. Can I change society by refusing to cook a meal so that my husband learns some responsibility about the home? What person will let the kids go hungry to prove a point... Such points make no impact and last as long as it takes to flush a toilet.
Can you neglect your child because your husband needs to learn that occasionally he should be the one to fix the scraped knee or kiss the hurts away? If you can than you don't deserve to be a mother... Can you treat your In-Laws like a bag of poop simpley because they may have done the same? If you can do this easily or at all what hope of you in teaching your children kindness? My point is that regardless we have endured and things are changing, slowly yes but it is still change. Do we throw caution to the wind and forget that we're mother, wives and DIL's... This is what i mean when i say we can not change who we inherantly are because truth be known as much as we hate the situation, letting it pull us to the ground fixes nothing! Better to stand tall in the face of adversity than to weep over it or to throw our hands up and say screw this!
I asked the question \";What can be done?\"; At no point did I add *shrugs shoulders* so please don't imply that is what I did. As for not concerning me well I would think that in posting I've acknowledged that I DO have a role in things. But as i said in answer to the question I can not say what should and shouldn't be done. My reply of \";i don't know\"; is exactly how I feel and I stand by that. Each must follow their own path, some are stronger than others, some want to take a passive approach (Heck it worked for Gandhi and for Jesus) and some wish to be the agressor, which is all well and good but of course the uber feminist gets little respect from men and even less from women as they are often the cause for more severity in the future.
We cant have a world filled with women who have become so self focused that they can not see past their own need for equality any more than we can have a world filled with owmen who do nothing... Some will take baby steps with themselves and their children, some will not change but will raise their kids with a different thinking and a million other combinations that each works for the individual and is tailor made for each specific situation.
Someone must keep the boat sailing as Priya said and yes I damn well agree. Unity isn't always the key though, yes we're united in these problems but one can not apply the same medicine to every wound... Look if you're hubby is prone to temper there are ways to deal with it gently and get your message across, if your hubby is prone to sulking you deal with that differently... This is what i mean because I accept some women are not able to just fend for themselves and stand up. Yes you are fired up and your cause isn't a lost one or one that people would like to give up on but your approach does need to be reconsidered. No one can tell someone how to live their life or what is the best or only way to change things.
Many are bound because of money or love or duty or fear or hope or what ever. Not everyone sees the exact same thing as a problem and that is because of circumstance (one may be forced endure much while another might not), personality (one person is stronger than another so what the first doesnt see as a prob the next might), ability (some of us can handle more) and so on... Let us be most united in our consideration and respect of each other, their problems and their own ways to improve things...
I want to say again that I agree things must change and we all seem to agree that the most far reaching thing we can do is teach our children... Are we serving ourselves or all of women-kind? We can not agree on a common solution with immediate results as you are hoping for \";be self reliant girls\"; and there is not need to feel we have failed you but not finding that immediate and self serving solution, you do realise that what you suggest is the most self focused suggestion dont you? How you concluded that we're \";helping just ourselves\"; by show our future generations a newer and better way is something I can not comprehend... Whan we teach our children we mold the future, we change it. This is what we are all doing this is something we are united in. What they learn at our knee they will pass on to those who sit at their kneee and with it they will add to the wisdom we gave... And so it goes... Sometimes the simplest things make the biggest difference. And this is a unity that you spoke of, it endures and is the product of the attitude change you wanted so much, the result will change society as you hoped... Why can you not see that and recognise it for what it is worth?
Q replied. Hi to the original poster (OP)!
I love your spirit! Thats the way a girl / a women should be! its been too long that the system dictates the men to be rulers and the women as followers..its not in Hinduism only, but more or less every religion on this earth.
I guess through evolution, women got caught up in child-bearing and rearing activities and gave the society-developing role to men.
Consequence -today we are killed in the womb, discriminated when children, made to work twice as harder as men and looked upon as a burden by a large portion of the world society.
You say what can we do...? Plenty!
Most of the nari-mukti turned get-togethers happen so, because the majority of members are rich, with lots of time and hands and no real motivation. These agencies can play such a vital role in our society if there were proper inspired leaders as you. Truly what the world needs is an idea! Half of the world population are women and think if the idea you preach or the message is sound and appeals to a fair sense and then it wont be long before it catches on and becomes a huge movement!
For gods sakes if \";thongs\"; can catch on so fast then a real movement requires just an initial heave-ho!
The mass of rich economies have emancipated women changing the traditional role of women in soceity without making much noise. in such societies noise is not needed, only action...which is what is happening.
in a traditional society as ours, noise is needed first and then leave it to the masses to get some action done.
thank god we are not as an oppressive society as the middle east and arab nations..we have a relatively closer and easier goal.
But it will take someone to get the stone rolling... and i think you are the best person for the job!!!
DONT LET YOUR DETERMINATION DIE DOWN!! Thats what the 50% (men) want!
Even if you cant reach everyone, and reach out to just a handful...these will take your message across.
Doesnt imply in anyway you are less capable to reach all, or you have to reach a handful ONLY. It took only a frail gandhi to teach th world of non-violence.
Godspeed to you!
no replied. u consider such women smart,,, so u may think anyway u want i m least bothered,,, of any other person...........
silence replied. Hi I wanted so much tocomment on this post... It was very passionate and exciting to read... You were obviously feeling fired up when you made this post... Good for you, it was interesting and the link you provided has had me busily reading....
In reply to what NO said about women smilingly accepting these things such as being a good wife and DIL etc... I am agreeance with PRIYA, someone must keep that boat sailing. If the women wants to be a good wife when her husband is so obviously still a child (espc around his parents) than that is her decision. I don't even think it is a gender specific role as in WIFE... Its simply being a good spouse and fullfuilling certain responsibilities and obligations.
I know there is a hell of a lot on injustice and equality is still something of a fantasy for most women but they are certainly the stronger sex. Happy or unhappy, good In-Laws or Bad how many of these wives are failing to be the things they were raised to be? Not many. They strive, they fight, they smile when they want to cry and that suceed! How strong are they do be doing this?
Oh yes I know it is easy to say look what society made me... Look what society expects of me... How can I do all of this and be happy... But do any of you say I am doing a great job? Because you are, and you should believe in yourself if only for the reason that you have endurance that men will never know.
And men will never know how much a woman goes through just as we can never really understand why our husbands find something so simple to be stressful to them... We are different, men & women. Can we really say that we are the same? I dont think so... We're stronger and we are softer. We are a walking contradiction and we deserve respect for the many roles we take on and accept in silence.
The thing is, we can not change who we inherantly are... We are the ones who nurture, love, clean, cook and smile... And we know that for the most part, aside from all the rubbish that goes on, we want to become parents and wives and career women... Most women do so and most manage it until the day they die. We don't give in...
So what can be done? Ha Ha Ha It is a tough question to answer. Do we follow the rich and pray they find equality so that everyone else might too? I don't think so. I think we start with our children... We raise our daughters with integrity, raise them with self respect, empower them so that they will not suffer as their mothers have... And they in turn will teach their daughters the same... And our sons, take them to your heart and tell them not to let their wives suffer, be a good In-Law when it is your time... Rome was not built in a day but piece by piece we can built a new future
no replied. hello,
u know 95% of indian girls pretend that they are leading a happy life, and they are scared to see the reality. there was a couple whom i met in one of our trips. that lady quit her good job twice just to follow her hub where ever she goes and always tells others in front of her hub that she has no regrets for quitting her 2 good jobs,,, that she has sacrificed for her husband,,, i cant believe when she tells she has no regrets...
few months back there was a group formed here,, in that group all ladies used to tell how their hubby takes care of them, how they like their hubby their in-laws these ladies were all trying to console themselves saying everything is good, and their life is a bed of roses..........
i dont think we can do much for the society cos when we find 95% of such ladies among us,, these ladies will never admit that there has to be some reform in themselves or their thinking ... all i can do is shut my ear doors when these ladies open their mouth to say good about their life,,, cos we all know how much is true..
another dil replied. I agree to to what you have said. I have seen a thousand times my mother, my aunts and now my sister just giving in to the wishes of husbands and in-laws just because they want to be the \";nice bahu\"; or want to maintain peace at home. Sometimes it drives me crazy.. i had also stood up for myself and did not give in for anything that was wrong.. result was my husband was told all sort of bad things abt me that i want him to be separated from the family and my parents dont respect the in-laws (because i stopped them from giving any gifts). Now, we live separately.. and my in-laws are still angry because they didnt get to torture me more.
In all, i think that i could stand up because i am self reliant.. so the first step to stop all this is not to depend on your husband for any of your needs..
prumessence replied. I understand where you are coming from. But i dont agree with you on lot of things. First of all our hinduism. I dont want to go with any x,y or z even if it is quoted to be said by bheeshma. I know one God. The high power & I am a hindu. I pray to all gods for the values they pass on, rest of the things we here are views of people be it sants or sadhus born thousands of years ago. They are still views. So i would believe that just as a man is faulty. So is a woman.
It is the joint value taught by parents to girl child. I fought against my parents from the day my brother was born and they used to be partial. I never learned cooking from my mom as a defiance. I talked back to my parents if i saw any partiality but i love them and my brother.
I suffered on hands of my inlaws but never lost my integrity. I did my kartavya but stood up when my self worth was questioned.
I have a daughter and i dont get her just dolls or let anybody tell her anything feminist or otherwise. We are all humans.
Seriously how many women's organization can we start and later down the road get it corrupted. How many voices can we raise but half of them dont know what to do with themselves or their family.
All we can do is understand that man and woman are 2 genders with their good and bad qualities. People with too much time sit down to right things like what women have as bad qualities etc. Every religion mistreats the women. It is people who allow them and let it go on who are wrong.
Let women read,learn,open their minds. Let men do the same and teach yourself to think. I dont blame my MIL for the wrong she does, I blame my husband and father in law equally for letting her do that to me. And then I blame myself to let that happen. Attitude change is needed.
While you are being so right in trying to raise the conscience of society. I would ask you to not get frustrated. Try to do what you can in your life, with your kids and relatives. Keep the faith!
no replied. u dont know majority of indian wives act in such a sweet way that they do everything what their hubby say and pretend that they are happy with their life,, actually they pretend to the core,, acting like a good wife, acting like a good dil in front of their hubbys and do whatever their hubby says, and even carry their hubbys footwear ..... all these are done by educated girls,, just to show how much they love their hubby ,,, and pretend to be sweet and happy in front of everybody,,,, do u think these ladies will tell anybody whats deep inside them.......
2005-09-14
#1
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS Subject: Way to go!!
Dear ladies,
I LOVE THE FACT that so many of us really feel for the cause and are so ready and motivated to do something about it. THAT's THE SPIRIT!!! This is such an important beginning and lets continue this.
You guys have offered such valuable suggestions and ALL OF US SHOULD IMPLEMENT THEM at our own individual levels with full enthusiasm and guts.
As Q has suggested, lets talk about this issue and the solutions suggested here, whenever and wherever we get a chance, and motivate more and more people to fight for it. I'm sure we all have our set of friends and relatives. Why not make it a point of discussion amongst them and motivate them towards it?
In the meantime, lets think about what kind of a group activity should be started, which is a really effective and an 'in-the-face' activity. Ladies, don't think that we cannot start a movement on our own and that we are too insignificant or not the kinds who can do it. If we believe in ourselves, we can start a massive movement and change the world. WE JUST NEED TO BELIEVE THAT WE CAN.
The key is a consistent and a growing activity...not just a rally or a few meetings which starts with full glory and then looses its charm. We really need to THINK, what can we do colletively for spreading the message on a larger scale and....WHAT CAN WE DO TO BRING ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT.
REMEMEBER!!! A humble beginning is all we need.
2005-09-09
#2
Name: silence Subject: you are all right... i am the wrongest of all
I tried to offer my thoughts about compromise for the weaker ones. In all my life this is the first time I ever stood up for anything and I was beat down from the begining. I owe you all an appoligy for my temper... Before that day I never even knew I had it in me.... But you negate EVERYTHING I say and I never did that to you. We talk of solutions and we can't agree. I dont know if we can agree on the problems either. I really felt picked on and I see now that if ever I intend to join a cause it must be with the knowledge that a woman knows best... and it seems that woman is everyone but me... Thats fine but I would have thought you'd at least listen to my ideas rather than trying to terminate them as not active enough...
You must believe me when I say i am sorry for the outburst. It completely ruined any hope I had of someone seeing it with any merit because I have shamed my words. Sorry but it hurt to know that the ones who are saying we must support each other are the very ones who have abused me of my self faith and value in my own ideas.
I thought the bigger picture was made up of smaller ones, I thought if we all added our small piece it would join to make a strong & wonderful thing but you dont want that you want your big picture painted exactly as you want it. I see that now... Sorry it took me so long... I just thought I might be of some help... Not so and I thank you for showing me this.
I shall wish you all the best in fighting for equality. I myself will go back to what I was and am... I can see that there is no place for me. Either among women or men... At least the men are honest about it
2005-09-13
#3
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS Subject: Open arms
Dear Silence,
The intention was never to hurt reject anyone, but to raise a point.
Let bygones be bygones. Welcoming you with open heart and open arms. Let's work together and it'll make all the difference.
2005-09-13
#4
Name: Q Subject: **
PLease, silence, if there was ever an attempt to negate you, i apologise.
Its exactly this that we are fighting against. we love that spirit,not the outburst. Your spirit only showed in the outburst. its this we want all women to possess and put up a voice against inequality.
do you like the honest men who arent really willing to gve you your rightful place or would you prefer the women friends who are trying to raise your self-esteem, by saying you dont really have to take all that bull..??
They are really your friends here. try not to take comments personally. One womens warzone is another's home.
2005-09-07
#5
Name: RR Subject: well well
Hi Girls,
dont think i am preaching or something.. but if we are here to find a solution lets not criticize each other. Off course we dont beleive that everybody will agree with our views.. Hey it is not possible for even God to make everybody happy. But, please lets not say bad words about each other and defeat the whole purpose of the mail in the first place.
The whole point that we need to agree to is: if we keep giving in to the injustice it will never stop.
and not giving in doesnt mean that we fight.. but we can still say strongly that \";it is against my principles and i will not do it or support it\";.
think till when do we want people in india to fear of having a baby girl. Till when do we want a bahu to be in fear of losing her marriage or life or her valuables or dear things.Till when do we want our parents to just keep giving and themselves live \";man maarke\"; because they have to marry off their girl and then keep giving gifts to her and her in-laws. Till when do we want the girls parents to ask permission of her husband and in-laws to invite their own child to their home. Till when do we want the well earning girl to want to give some gifts to her parents or siblings and be criticized for that.
Its high time for all this to stop. and nobody else will do it but us. our parents also deserve the same respect and so do we.
2005-09-05
#6
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS Subject: Yes!!! UNITY
Dear Q and other ladies,
I am really glad that there are balanced people like you and others like 'no' 'rr' 'another dil' and 'prumessence' who can distinguish between 'self worth' and 'selfish'... and see the things the way they are... and are not disillusioned. i think that's the first step... 'self realisation'.
We're asking for equality and it'll not be handed over to us on a silver platter...But some people on this board think that we're talking about taking drastic measures like divorce, or having fights in our household all the time over nothing. Not at all!!! We don't want that. all we're saying is that may be there's a way where we can make the society treat us more like a human being. For that, first, WE WILL have to realise our self-worth, we would need to respect ourselves as human beings and not attempt at becoming demi-gods!! we need to have the confidence and channelise the 'women strength' some ladies have mentioned here to eradicate the ever prevalent social evil....
And as some women here have pointed out that some women are not very bold in standing up for their rights, there are some women who are strong and others are weak. Correct. Therefore, I think it becomes the duty of the bold and the strong women to make the weak women bolder by supporting them...they should give them the confidence in themselves. Two words of support would do wonders for a woman who has somehow managed the courage to stand-up for her rigths...believe me.
Secondly, even the ones who are not strong can help...by supporting the bold women from the back. And by not criticising them at what they are doing.
Thirdly, the women who think they can't stand-up for themselves and want to continue the way they had been.... need to stop 'chastising' the women who have have the courage to stand-up. We already know that we would not get support from most of the men...so the least we can do is, support our kind..if not that...then atleast...we should not condemn them.
And believe me, i again emphasise, unity has always been the key to everyone's success. each nation got their independence by unity, and by standing up for their rights....not by enduring enslavement...where would that get you???
Again, we're not lamenting the women who follow the policy of being 'wise', so please refrain from reacting to the following thoughts...coz again...that would not serve any purpose. We are not commenting on the ladies who do it, but on the line of thought which leads them to do it and hence, carry on the age-old atrocious tradiitons, which they unknowingly contribute to.
The idea is to understand the root of our problem... because the fact that some intelligent and educated women choose to follow this policy...there MIGHT be a merit in that school of thought...which some of us, who are trying to fight for the cause...think is the root cause of women miseries...we call it being 'disillusioned'.
In a marriage, the purpose is not to make only one person happy...but to make each other happy. a one-way relationship doesn't last long, contrary to the popular 'wise women' belief....may be that's their way of keeping things going and happy, but do they stop and think think how harmful is that for the society as a whole?
and they do all these things, without realising it. They look down upon the women who don't agree with them. 'apne rang mein hi dhaalna chahtey hai'... they always teach....if you can't fight them....join them...and most women do that...they give up...and some of us who don't...are immediately labeled as 'selfish', 'feminists'....
some women even say...hahaha...'we don't deserve to be mothers!!'..how insensitive is that?...and all that just because we disagree with them...and they immediately jump to the conclusion that we suggest mindless fights and divorces to accomplish this task...
While the 'wise women' are happy and content on the surface, may be justifying their actions to themselves each day and they really believe that they have made it in life...by being an excellent wife (which means babying the hubby around and hence, spoiling him bad), by being an ideal DIL (which means giving in to demands - society specific demands or otherwise- and hence carrying on the age-old traditions), by being amazing mothers (by taking ALL the responsibilities coz may be the husband dear is thought of as incompetent, and it is believed falsely that fatherhood cannot equate motherhood. 'Wise women' take pride in monopolising a parent's responsibilities coz that is a proof for their dying souls of good motherhood-an overstated claim...why? don't fathers love their children? just because women give birth doesn't make fathers any less of a parent!! isn't that a very unjust claim that we women propagate? infact, it boomerangs at us later. What right do we have to think that mothers are superior to fathers in love for their own flesh and blood? Fathers are given such a raw deal right from the beginning, that they feel that there is no way they can love and take care of their own child better than their wives!!
And since the 'wise women' make such wonderful human beings of themselves...demi gods infact...they think all the pain and injustice is worth the effort....while it might keep the life without any problems or turbulence, but can these women claim that they have no turbulence inside themselves also? can they really claim it doesn't hurt them when they do so much out of love, feelings, kindness, politeness and above all... happiness... and when they need a fraction of the same from their spouse or family, they are not given even that much? I'm sure it hurts and I'm sure it happens to all those nice women who go about their duties happily...don't we need some love, care, nurturing, pampering once in a while? And the reality is - We feel sooooooo bad saying this....'we need love, care, nurturing, pampering as often as anyone else'....and if these women say that we would impart the right kind of values to their sons and daughters...i'm, not too sure if it would be the thinking they are living by, or the thinking which is required to bring about the change in this society. coz if they would teach the same rules they are living with...then it just doesn't help...coz it means carrying on of a wrong tradition....and if they plan to teach the rules which we are talking about (that is standing up for one's self-respect, equality and rights in every field)....then why are they living the way they are???? and above all... why do they expect their children to do something that they themselves couldn't or can't?
Ladies, our problem is that we immediately jump at the other woman who is trying to think or do something which is out of tradition...even when they acknowledge that the traditions are wrong and unjust....another problem is...that when we see that so many women have failed in their attempts...we assume that thats is the natural course of action...and hence, even they are bound to follow the suit coz they are helpless....we assume that we are weak...how far can we fight?...true...every individual is weak if he is alone...isn't it? wouldn't it be nice when you support a woman full throttle when you see her fight for injustice (at home, at work, in general)...it so much adds to her confidence...and then who knows...may be she wins too!!! and all that would have happened...just because...you didn't try to teach her the 'weakness' at her time of need...you backed her ....you spoke in her tone and justified her cause...for a change....you didn't 'chastise' her...
think about it...how many times have you done it? support a woman completely when she really needed you?
And how many times have you compassionately listened and listened to her problems, empathised with her, may be added your own list of problems also during the discussion....and then later just said...\";kya kar saktey hai...aissa hi hota hai yahan par\";...or said...\";why don't you please your husband a little more, be more forgiving, understanding, hear him out, bear it....you need to be the wise one, he can't be\";....or be more compassionate with in-laws etc...or said...\";this i how our indian society works...we have to do it\";...
aren't we all hypocrites? when we have to bear something, we cry in a corner. when we see another woman going thru the same thing, we don't support her, saying...this is how our society is!!!!
and even worse...we enjoy just talking about our problems, when somebody says lets do something about it...we immediately say...\";we don't want quarrels in our household\";
Ladies, lets not cricize the women who want to stand up, lets support and help each-other....again...lets attempt at being united
and atleast acknowledge...that yes....we have a problem, and we have contributed to it...
WE need to change...
We need to get together....and do something about it
2005-09-06
#7
Name: Q Subject: **
Again, lets not mock anyone. Lets respect fair speech and be open to thoughts.
My suggestions -
1. With an open mind every women who read this forum should take time off to realise if she is being treated unequally. If you put up with even small amounts of unequal treatment you are NECESSARILY advocating it.
2. Your refusal to put your foot down albeit politely just adds on to the problem whereby you are considered weak. Lets not be seen as weak.
3. at your workplace/mamma clubs/neighbourhood/communitry gatherings/religious gatherings/book meetings...actively discuss this topic.
4. If you have an understanding MIL, be an example to society!!! Nothing works better than this!
5. Any wrong happenings, if you sit quitely and watch you are as guilty as the wrong-doer. Bhagwad Gita says this.
6. bring up your sons and daughters with equality.
7. keep writing / speaking in anypublic forum you get the chance to.
2005-09-06
#8
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS Subject: To Q and all the ladies
Dear Q,
You know what? I have met very few people who are as supporting and as encouraging as you are...I really admire that. This is what we need, a confident person like you who believes in herself and is all so ready to extend support.
I'm not praising you because you support my thinking, i don't think its my thinking anyways, but a thinking which has been brewing up in our hearts for ages.
Just re-iterating the steps that have been collectively suggested here by all, towards changing this society:
1) Changing our own attitude and understanding our self worth.
2) Raising our children with the 'right' social values and teaching them to be self reliant and confident in every situation.
3) Being bold and standing up for our own rights in our day-to-day activities...fighting for what is rightfully ours...our Dignity.
4) Whenever we see a woman standing up for her rights, or fighting out a situation...support her full throttle.
5) Instead of just listening to her problems, suggest solutions to the helpless woman and support her completely when she needs you.....in front of everyone.
6) Empower the weak - give them a sense of confidence
7) Never criticise a woman who has the guts to fight for her rights.
The above steps are effective, but as you have also said, and i too agree on that...it is slow proces...so i guess it should continue on the side. We need to think now of steps that are faster and are capable of bringing about a movement.....we need help on this from al the ladies....so please suggest ideas....an idea is all we need...and all of us can then get together and act on it.
Dear Q, for this, as pointed out by you, we may start an ageny. I was wondering about the Nari Mukti agencies that you are suggesting. You are right about the problems we face in setting up such agencies...But we definitely need to set up some leading agency which can put a bold step forward...a collection of really bold and determined women...who can run the show, while other women can follow the example in their daily lives if they feel can't join the agency. But the problem i see is...even if we make such an agency...we can only act from outside...
May be we can start some PR activity, or start a sponsored programme on the television (reality shows dramatised)...or talking directly to women about the injustice, motivating them to change, giving them the confidence in themselves, showing examples of the women who fought for their rights. We can try to get our message across. We can try to teach women the lesson of self-reliance. Moreover, then they would know some sort of a thing has started and they can contact us, or join us, or if nothing else, can be self-aware in their day-to-day lives...the most important key...This might also have an effect on the family as a whole... we can communicate our message to in-laws, spouse, parents, children...the whole family and try to make them understand....see the things the way they are.
But we need to do a lot more actually...ladies...lets have an open forum here and lets brainstorm.....once we have the ideas in place...we can start working on the feasibilities....the mechanics....please don't think that any idea is stupid...or too big to implement...just come up with ideas....we'll see the mechanics later....this would help us open our minds..and not be weihed down by 'practical solutions' syndrome...
all the best....all of us are waiting for the responses...go on!!
2005-09-06
#9
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS Subject: Dearest 'silence' baby
HA HA HA HA HA HA...you're so KIDDISH 'Silence'...
Ignoring your comments hereafter...don't have the time....seriously!!!..HA HA HA HA
2005-09-05
#10
Name: Q Subject: **
Silence, use a cue from your name .....you are really ranting here.
I was following your points quite keenly till now and thought they held some weight, but now in the last post i think you have taken it far too personally even if there was some amount of mocking and some unneeded innuendos.
let not the original issue dissolve into a mud-fest. It is a very interesting discussion and I am sure we will gain quite a lot for life when the confusion clears.
One one hand Silence says that you are born different as women, have more power to endure and "should keep the boat sailing"
On the other hand the Op says that enough of floating the boat..to hell with it! lets give it a rock and hope that out of the confusion a new better system arises.
Now if i put it that simply, it isnt really an issue where you shoudl be locking horns with each other. The views arent extreme to each other at all.
Both agree that its time that things change but both differ on the amount of change that can be bought in at one time.
Lets have a poll with the other readers.
My personal opinion is that it takes to long to bring abt this change cheerfully. I think if we want to make the world a better place for our daughters...why daughters only..for our children, its time we took things in our hand. I think one generation is still too long a time for raising the levels of equality to a decent level.
Btw, i just remembered, Silence i quote you " Can you treat your In-Laws like a bag of poop simpley because they may have done the same?"
this is exactly the point of the OP. For too long, we have lived on this belief that we should show compassion where there is none needed. When your in-laws treat you like a bag of poop, its not them but YOU who deserve the "kindness"! Thats where I agree with the OP that a change of view is needed.
I disagree also when you (silence) says that we are "pampered little mummy's & daddy's girls" boys..i dont know. The pampered girls learn to be subjugated. the self reliant ones grow up to develop a view point and THINK & BELIVE they can harness a change.
Gandhi is a perfect example for us - fast action thru non-violent/harmonised means.
This is what "I" am advocating. Let teh OP speak for herself. But i believe she has a point.
2005-09-05
#11
Name: SILENCE Subject: ..........HA!
Lets be honest a great deal of this post is direct at my comments so let me explain things. You'd posted "some women even say...hahaha...'we don't deserve to be mothers!!'..how insensitive is that?...and all that just because we disagree with them...and they immediately jump to the conclusion that we suggest mindless fights and divorces to accomplish this task..." if you insist on quoting me, and I don't mind that you have, I must ask that you do not add words and inuendo that was never there... Not at any point did I say that others are suggesting divorce or mindless fights as a way of solving the issue nor did I say I felt this is what anyone meant.
You made ridiculed the idea of being a good wife by saying that in being one it involves "babying the hubby around and hence, spoiling him bad" Who here suggested that being a good wife involves babying their husband? Who here said we must bow down to such childish behaviour? I myself never suggested it, all I said is that each will choose their own approach.
You have suggested we do not condemn one another but the point in you're condeming others for not agreeing with you, for suggesting that one set action is not the only way, for recommending that we each do what we can, when we can and in a way we feel we can best serve the cause... On top of that you add words and thoughts that never were said and then chastise them for the very words that came not from them but from yourself.
Being a good DIL does not involve meeting all the demands and expecation the In-Laws & society throw at us and again NOONE said that was part of being a good DIL. All I said was that we can not think we're better people or feel we've 'improved' our lot in life by creating more disharmony.
As for being a mother and remaining true to that responsibility I want to stress again that you've again twisted what I said into "by taking ALL the responsibilities coz may be the husband dear is thought of as incompetent, and it is believed falsely that fatherhood cannot equate motherhood"... At no point did I say a father had no value or that they can not take care of a child as a woman can... What I did say is that many owmen can not ignore a child in need and if the father isn't fullfilling his end of things it comes as naturally as air for the mother to pick up the slack... Just as many men have done in other situations. How many men work harder, and longer without a second thought to earn enough to financially support the home when the wife stops work to have children. I sure as hell never read any post that said women are superiour to men as parents.
All this shit about WISE WOMEN... and that we must not condemn one another... PLEASE... Did anyone claim to be wise? Did anyone claim to be right? Only those who insist they have THE answer are the ones making a mokery of the phrase WISE WOMEN... You know what? Honestly... I shall give my honest thoughts here... Indian women scream and cry that they get a raw deal but they forget that there are certain benifits we all take for granted. We're happy to have our parents pamper us in our childhood and then we hate that it ends when we marry.
For the most part Indian women let the man pay for our dinner when we dine out, they allow mummy & daddy to pay for their education (hello what ever happened to this self reliance? get a p/t job and help pay for yourself or pay back your folks, they jump up and down with upset when their mummy or MIL doesn't act like they've just accomplished the worlds most arduos task and pamper them after they have a child, so many have help around the home in the form of hired persons, having a nany comes as naturally to the middle class as it would to only the very wealthy in the west.
I would love to see how many Indians would survive if thrown into EQUALITY as those in the west experience. Truly Indian women might not have the equality they want but they are indeed pampered in ways that a lot of women will never know. Ask a few western women what they really think of the situation you're in a many would say that you suffer no less than they do, that there are benifits to our lifestyle that they would dearly love to have and that there are great things they have that we should have also... But on the whole we're viewed as pampered little mummy's & daddy's girls/boys by many in the west.
Make fun of the things I said... I am sure you will anyway and you may even go on and add more to it by insinuating I meant this or that... Condemn me for suggesting that we must act individually for the same cause and fuck it, while we're on the subject why don't you women who like to mock the term "wise women" (and you are the ones who first threw out that little remark) come up with a god damned solution and then come back with yet another fantastical post that will shove it so far down our throats that we have no choice but to either choke on it or bow down to it worse than society has ever made us do before...
Yes do that... Support me... Support all of us that want to change things in a way that allows us to maintain some respect from others, that will prevent others from assuming being a feminist involves being a complete biggot in our own beliefs about what is right or wrong... I FUCKING DARE YOU TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION THAT WILL WORK AND MY FUCKING GOODNESS IF YOU DO I WILL FOLLOW YOU ALL THE WAY
2005-09-05
#12
Name: silence Subject: Unity?
I think it may just be possible that you've taken my comment slightly out of context \";be self reliant girls\"; and for the shock you felt at it I am incredibly sorry... I am also sorry that you feel that in NOT FAILING as a mother wife and DIL I fall into a category that you can not comprehend.
Have you really bothered to read many of the posts here? Most women ask for advice and freely admit to not following it. Why not? For many reasons and each has her own justification. It is all well and good to say what people should and shouldn't be doing to change things but the point is WE HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES and although some of them are rediculous we can't ignore a great lot of them. Can I change society by refusing to cook a meal so that my husband learns some responsibility about the home? What person will let the kids go hungry to prove a point... Such points make no impact and last as long as it takes to flush a toilet.
Can you neglect your child because your husband needs to learn that occasionally he should be the one to fix the scraped knee or kiss the hurts away? If you can than you don't deserve to be a mother... Can you treat your In-Laws like a bag of poop simpley because they may have done the same? If you can do this easily or at all what hope of you in teaching your children kindness? My point is that regardless we have endured and things are changing, slowly yes but it is still change. Do we throw caution to the wind and forget that we're mother, wives and DIL's... This is what i mean when i say we can not change who we inherantly are because truth be known as much as we hate the situation, letting it pull us to the ground fixes nothing! Better to stand tall in the face of adversity than to weep over it or to throw our hands up and say screw this!
I asked the question \";What can be done?\"; At no point did I add *shrugs shoulders* so please don't imply that is what I did. As for not concerning me well I would think that in posting I've acknowledged that I DO have a role in things. But as i said in answer to the question I can not say what should and shouldn't be done. My reply of \";i don't know\"; is exactly how I feel and I stand by that. Each must follow their own path, some are stronger than others, some want to take a passive approach (Heck it worked for Gandhi and for Jesus) and some wish to be the agressor, which is all well and good but of course the uber feminist gets little respect from men and even less from women as they are often the cause for more severity in the future.
We cant have a world filled with women who have become so self focused that they can not see past their own need for equality any more than we can have a world filled with owmen who do nothing... Some will take baby steps with themselves and their children, some will not change but will raise their kids with a different thinking and a million other combinations that each works for the individual and is tailor made for each specific situation.
Someone must keep the boat sailing as Priya said and yes I damn well agree. Unity isn't always the key though, yes we're united in these problems but one can not apply the same medicine to every wound... Look if you're hubby is prone to temper there are ways to deal with it gently and get your message across, if your hubby is prone to sulking you deal with that differently... This is what i mean because I accept some women are not able to just fend for themselves and stand up. Yes you are fired up and your cause isn't a lost one or one that people would like to give up on but your approach does need to be reconsidered. No one can tell someone how to live their life or what is the best or only way to change things.
Many are bound because of money or love or duty or fear or hope or what ever. Not everyone sees the exact same thing as a problem and that is because of circumstance (one may be forced endure much while another might not), personality (one person is stronger than another so what the first doesnt see as a prob the next might), ability (some of us can handle more) and so on... Let us be most united in our consideration and respect of each other, their problems and their own ways to improve things...
I want to say again that I agree things must change and we all seem to agree that the most far reaching thing we can do is teach our children... Are we serving ourselves or all of women-kind? We can not agree on a common solution with immediate results as you are hoping for \";be self reliant girls\"; and there is not need to feel we have failed you but not finding that immediate and self serving solution, you do realise that what you suggest is the most self focused suggestion dont you? How you concluded that we're \";helping just ourselves\"; by show our future generations a newer and better way is something I can not comprehend... Whan we teach our children we mold the future, we change it. This is what we are all doing this is something we are united in. What they learn at our knee they will pass on to those who sit at their kneee and with it they will add to the wisdom we gave... And so it goes... Sometimes the simplest things make the biggest difference. And this is a unity that you spoke of, it endures and is the product of the attitude change you wanted so much, the result will change society as you hoped... Why can you not see that and recognise it for what it is worth?
2005-09-05
#13
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS Subject: Why a bashing session???
Dear Silence,
You sure have taken things personally even though my opening sentence was not to coz it was not aimed at you guys at all!!!!!!
What I wrote, was not aimed at you or your noble actions and thinking, but i was aiming at what people make out of your noble actions 'silence'....you may have a bigger cause in mind ...but do people really see it that way? Do they realise your bigger cause?
So why should we make it a bashing session around here when the idea is to share the thoughts? What purpose does it serve?
And by the way.....
Gandhi walked 240 miles to prove a point!!
2005-09-04
#14
Name: Q Subject: ***
Hi to the original poster (OP)!
I love your spirit! Thats the way a girl / a women should be! its been too long that the system dictates the men to be rulers and the women as followers..its not in Hinduism only, but more or less every religion on this earth.
I guess through evolution, women got caught up in child-bearing and rearing activities and gave the society-developing role to men.
Consequence -today we are killed in the womb, discriminated when children, made to work twice as harder as men and looked upon as a burden by a large portion of the world society.
You say what can we do...? Plenty!
Most of the nari-mukti turned get-togethers happen so, because the majority of members are rich, with lots of time and hands and no real motivation. These agencies can play such a vital role in our society if there were proper inspired leaders as you. Truly what the world needs is an idea! Half of the world population are women and think if the idea you preach or the message is sound and appeals to a fair sense and then it wont be long before it catches on and becomes a huge movement!
For gods sakes if \";thongs\"; can catch on so fast then a real movement requires just an initial heave-ho!
The mass of rich economies have emancipated women changing the traditional role of women in soceity without making much noise. in such societies noise is not needed, only action...which is what is happening.
in a traditional society as ours, noise is needed first and then leave it to the masses to get some action done.
thank god we are not as an oppressive society as the middle east and arab nations..we have a relatively closer and easier goal.
But it will take someone to get the stone rolling... and i think you are the best person for the job!!!
DONT LET YOUR DETERMINATION DIE DOWN!! Thats what the 50% (men) want!
Even if you cant reach everyone, and reach out to just a handful...these will take your message across.
Doesnt imply in anyway you are less capable to reach all, or you have to reach a handful ONLY. It took only a frail gandhi to teach th world of non-violence.
Godspeed to you!
2005-08-31
#15
Name: no Subject: to priya
u consider such women smart,,, so u may think anyway u want i m least bothered,,, of any other person...........
2005-09-01
#16
Name: no Subject: yes RR
at the end of the day , we got to think that we came on this earth to enjoy our lives and not ruin our live making somebody else happy throughout our life... i dont mean to say we got to fight with our partner entire life...... or divorce our partners.... but this trend is going to continue forever.... each of us are different and so we got our own views....... few girls think they are smart than us coz they pretend to be sweet
2005-08-31
#17
Name: RR Subject: I agree
Dear "no" .. I totally agree with you. I think this keeping sweet and not revolting for the injustice has us in this situation. The key is being self reliant..
till these people keep finding girls who can bear the injustice for a good bank balance.. because i dont think their life is half as good..; they will never start behaving with respect with their "bahus". So, we need to speak against injustice.
Off course, divorce is not the only option.. sometimes just talking and taking a stand works. everybody has to make some adjustments in all the relationships .. but giving in to injustice of the kind which exists in our society is just too much.
2005-08-29
#18
Name: silence Subject: Empower Your Daughters
Hi I wanted so much tocomment on this post... It was very passionate and exciting to read... You were obviously feeling fired up when you made this post... Good for you, it was interesting and the link you provided has had me busily reading....
In reply to what NO said about women smilingly accepting these things such as being a good wife and DIL etc... I am agreeance with PRIYA, someone must keep that boat sailing. If the women wants to be a good wife when her husband is so obviously still a child (espc around his parents) than that is her decision. I don't even think it is a gender specific role as in WIFE... Its simply being a good spouse and fullfuilling certain responsibilities and obligations.
I know there is a hell of a lot on injustice and equality is still something of a fantasy for most women but they are certainly the stronger sex. Happy or unhappy, good In-Laws or Bad how many of these wives are failing to be the things they were raised to be? Not many. They strive, they fight, they smile when they want to cry and that suceed! How strong are they do be doing this?
Oh yes I know it is easy to say look what society made me... Look what society expects of me... How can I do all of this and be happy... But do any of you say I am doing a great job? Because you are, and you should believe in yourself if only for the reason that you have endurance that men will never know.
And men will never know how much a woman goes through just as we can never really understand why our husbands find something so simple to be stressful to them... We are different, men & women. Can we really say that we are the same? I dont think so... We're stronger and we are softer. We are a walking contradiction and we deserve respect for the many roles we take on and accept in silence.
The thing is, we can not change who we inherantly are... We are the ones who nurture, love, clean, cook and smile... And we know that for the most part, aside from all the rubbish that goes on, we want to become parents and wives and career women... Most women do so and most manage it until the day they die. We don't give in...
So what can be done? Ha Ha Ha It is a tough question to answer. Do we follow the rich and pray they find equality so that everyone else might too? I don't think so. I think we start with our children... We raise our daughters with integrity, raise them with self respect, empower them so that they will not suffer as their mothers have... And they in turn will teach their daughters the same... And our sons, take them to your heart and tell them not to let their wives suffer, be a good In-Law when it is your time... Rome was not built in a day but piece by piece we can built a new future
2005-09-03
#19
Name: BE SELF RELIANT GIRLS Subject: to 'silence' and 'priya'
No offence to either 'silence' or to 'Priya', seriously, each one of us is entitled to their opinion. So please don't take my observations on your comments personally....
According to 'silence'...
"We are stronger emotionally, so we can bear the pain and still smile, and do a good job, never falter from our duties and endure all the pains and insults
According to 'Priya'...
"Some of choose to give all the hapiness to our husbands, that is being a good spouse,..so what's wrong with that?...it keeps our sanity and cash flowing....someone has to keep the boat sailing.... i think that's smart!!!!!...and allow the injustice to pass on to the future generations"
WOW!!! I swear, I'm so hurt and aghast at such thinking...This is the exact so called 'matured' and 'wise' womanly behaviour that has been beyond my comprehension.
I really feel that the 'strength' you're talking about has led most of us to believe and act foolishly, instead wisely...and infact, this strength and 'silence' itself is the real culprit.
I guess, as pointed out by 'prumessence' and 'No' also, this is root cause of all our miseries... OUR CURSE...just trying to 'hush' down he issue temporarily by being oh-so sweet and mellow...enduring all the pain and injustice smilingly and being very boisterous about it....this is our curse
Ladies, being wise and matured means that the person needs to have a 'full understanding' of the situation and its consequences...think about it...please.
i dunno about the boat, but a boat too needs rowing from both the sides, not only from one side...otherwise it'll sink...just the way they say that you need two wheels to run the 'marriage' cart.
Priya's suggestion states that...let one person go all haywire and let the other preson control the whole thing...i think this suggestion is best left without a comment... because its absolutely kiddish!!!
Secondly priya, we're not talking about taking the extreme measures as a divorce or something...we're talking about the change in attitude and a change in society...its much BIGGER than what you think....
Silence, I fully agree that we need to raise our children better (that's what even i said)... but don't you think that we should shake ourselves out of complacence and the age-old intertia for a change and not expect others to change things for us? When would we think of taking matters in our own hands and be finally responsible for our actions???
Yes i know that there are a priviledged few women who are financially independent. But the fact is...there are a few of them....but are they ready to bear the torch? no....coz they like playing it safe and suggest...let others do it..we can't..."we'll change our children, we'll change our attitude"...but what else can we do?
Yeah, that's easy, shrug shoulders, as if it doesn't concern you.
I agree they are the right steps...but they alone are not enough... coz we still are helping just ourselves...
Shayad sab sach hi kehte hai..."Aurato mein kabhi unity nahi ho sakti"....one problem, which is universal to all the women...we don't even seem to agree on that...so what do you think would we ever agree upon????
I know i may sound really fired up here...the reason is i'm angry at our own kind....so many women seem to be under somew kind of spell or some mass hypnotism or illusion...and its frustrating that they can't seem to understand something so basic..that its not strength....its foolishness....that UNITY is the key...not individualism
Please think seriously, what can we do to eradicate this social evil...its in your interest, yor daughter's interest...
well, whom am i kidding?...guess this forum would just become a board of discussion of the same old problems and no one would think that there is any merit in even thinking about solving this problem...coz some feel...its not a problem at all...some feel, what can we do?...others think its not worth it...they think that no one would do anything....yet others are really happy about just changing themselves and their children....and the thought of getting together for a common cause seems just too stupid!!! AINT IT???
2005-08-26
#20
Name: no Subject: hi, once again
hello,
u know 95% of indian girls pretend that they are leading a happy life, and they are scared to see the reality. there was a couple whom i met in one of our trips. that lady quit her good job twice just to follow her hub where ever she goes and always tells others in front of her hub that she has no regrets for quitting her 2 good jobs,,, that she has sacrificed for her husband,,, i cant believe when she tells she has no regrets...
few months back there was a group formed here,, in that group all ladies used to tell how their hubby takes care of them, how they like their hubby their in-laws these ladies were all trying to console themselves saying everything is good, and their life is a bed of roses..........
i dont think we can do much for the society cos when we find 95% of such ladies among us,, these ladies will never admit that there has to be some reform in themselves or their thinking ... all i can do is shut my ear doors when these ladies open their mouth to say good about their life,,, cos we all know how much is true..
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Way to go!!
you are all right... i am the wrongest of all
Open arms
**
To Q and all the ladies
Dearest 'silence' baby
..........HA!
Unity?
I agree
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