I am appalled at Job's chauvinism and I am sure many here reading these boards who have genuine problems must be as appalled as I am. If his chauvinistic philosophy has worked for him and his wife as he claims there is no guarantee that it will work for the ladies here. A lot of them use this board as a sounding board and this act in itself might help them let off some steam. The last thing they need is for an MCP like him to come along and claim that he alone is conducting a healthy discussion whereas the others who are raisng valid points in the discussion are only debating. There have been excellent points raised in the discussion and each is worth pondering upon. It is upto each one to see which point applies to them or helps them.
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I am appalled at Job's chauvinism and I am sure many here reading these boards who have genuine problems must be as appalled as I am. If his chauvinistic philosophy has worked for him and his wife as he claims there is no guarantee that it will work for the ladies here. A lot of them use this board as a sounding board and this act in itself might help them let off some steam. The last thing they need is for an MCP like him to come along and claim that he alone is conducting a healthy discussion whereas the others who are raisng valid points in the discussion are only debating. There have been excellent points raised in the discussion and each is worth pondering upon. It is upto each one to see which point applies to them or helps them.
Neela replied. Hi Vimpi,
It is so strange how we are both so aligned in what we are thinking - in fact I totally agree about how parents should practice non-interference. One other thing that happens now-a-days...
Earlier times parents used to be financially dependent on sons and used to agree to stay together for those reasons. Now-a-days several of the older people that I know actually seem to prefer to stay alone till they can manage by themselves...
In fact it is very strange but there was a MIL-DIL pair in our community whose daily interactions used to be like watching one of those saas-bahu serials - Recently they have split up and live separately but close to each other.....The very surprising thing is that both sets of parties are much happier in life. The son helps financially but the DIL doesn't mind so long as she doesn't have to live with MIL! And the MIL told me honestly that after a long, long time she is actually having fun in life!!! Of course, they meet regularly, see the kids etc...
But before they split I know that the MIL used to be very depressed and always crying and even then she used to say that she does not want to go, she wants to stay together but the DIL has split the family, about how her son has no power and DIL has brainwashed him, about how she is treated as second-class and doesn't get respect etc. etc. She used to worry so much about how she is going to survive by herself etc. Now that they are separate, I can tell you honestly that she is really, really happy simply running her own household like she is used to doing and she is managing very well by herself! I can see her being bright and smiling all the time!
For people who want close relationship (especially guys who want parents and wife to have close relationship and keep forcing mom and wife together), I have a piece of advice - Actually keeping them a little separate from each other brings more closeness and happiness and peace of mind to the family!!!! This sounds strange but it is true - distance makes relationships closer!
It seems that only one woman can run a home at a time and putting both together ends up with one feeling good and dominating and the other feeling bad and being insulted, be it MIL or DIL. But keep them separate and both are much happier! When the women are happy, family is happy.
Of course best case would be when both can adjust and live together as equals - but unfortunately reality is such that if you put two women together and both love the same man, one ends up dominating the other and not sharing. But I still think if the roles were reversed and husband has to move to daughter's home after marriage, same would happen and they will end up fighting with daughter's fathers a lot!!
Vimpi, you are saying how women are more insecure than men and I totally agree about how they look to the men for security. But if you think about why women feel insecure???
Both MIL and FIL are old - in fact FIL older but typically MIL is lot more scared than FIL - you know why? Becos FIL only mostly worries about security and little bit of respect. MIL always wants an upper hand i.e constantly needs to know that she is the woman-in-charge. I feel that just like men are power-hungry in the work area, women are power-hungry in the home area. Only difference is once men reach certain age, the office retires them off and says \" go home.\" For women, during the day also we don't have set hours of work (we have to work day-in, day-out, cooking, cleaning, even weekends) but after 65 also there is no retirement scheme or policy.
Of course traditionally there is a retirement system i.e vanaprasta where they have to go for the forest. For taking gifts, asking brides parents to pay for everything, youngsters adjust to older people and all traditions are the key! But things like vanaprasta / going to forest/staying away from children noone follows!! The reason is becos the guy and his family have the \" upper-hand\" or the \" power\" and they exploit the system - I strongly feel it all starts with us giving guys / guys side more power than ladies / ladies side and making them feel over-powerful so they exploit the system! (And want to clarify that doesn't mean not to respect older people etc - only that give equal respect to older people be they guy's side or girl's side - both are old, why the difference in treatment?)
Of course we cannot change the system in our in-law's homes where we have no power, but we can start in our brother's wife's (OUR) home where we have the power....If we go down a little bit there, automatically as a circle it will come around and push us up a little bit in our in-law's place....
This is a strange thing that happened to me - I started treating my SIL well, she supported me and got me gifts, I tried helping my mom as MIL to be supportive of her - you know very funny thing happened - my own in-law situation became better!!! I have seen this in other friends places too - so to women I feel going little lower with the SIL in your home helps ease your own in-law situation! Just as women are women's worst enemies they are also their best friends..Today my SIL and I chat about the common things in our in-laws place and she is to-be-honest closer to me than my brother!!! I think days of bossing around brother's wife and interfering in their life should come to an end since it hurts women who do it more than helps them!....
Here in the US it is mostly the daughters who take care of the parents not the sons. In that case, it seems that lot of guys have lots of problems with their in-laws (And of course, something like \" father of the bride\" is polular ..)
Vimpi, I really enjoyed reading ur email where the thoughts are so similar to mine - one of the simple pleasures of life is to find someone who thinks like you I think???
Thanks Vimpi, Neela.
SR replied. I do not believe Job's chauvanist philosophy has worked for him and his wife. It seems as though Job is turning a blind eye to his wife's unhappiness.. and wants to believe she is very happy.
I don't think he's ever sat down with her and tried to find out what she really may want. And if he has done so.. he's ignored her wishes.
I don't know which woman in this day and age would take such crap.
2006-12-15
#1
Name: Neela Subject: Strange but true...
Hi Vimpi,
It is so strange how we are both so aligned in what we are thinking - in fact I totally agree about how parents should practice non-interference. One other thing that happens now-a-days...
Earlier times parents used to be financially dependent on sons and used to agree to stay together for those reasons. Now-a-days several of the older people that I know actually seem to prefer to stay alone till they can manage by themselves...
In fact it is very strange but there was a MIL-DIL pair in our community whose daily interactions used to be like watching one of those saas-bahu serials - Recently they have split up and live separately but close to each other.....The very surprising thing is that both sets of parties are much happier in life. The son helps financially but the DIL doesn't mind so long as she doesn't have to live with MIL! And the MIL told me honestly that after a long, long time she is actually having fun in life!!! Of course, they meet regularly, see the kids etc...
But before they split I know that the MIL used to be very depressed and always crying and even then she used to say that she does not want to go, she wants to stay together but the DIL has split the family, about how her son has no power and DIL has brainwashed him, about how she is treated as second-class and doesn't get respect etc. etc. She used to worry so much about how she is going to survive by herself etc. Now that they are separate, I can tell you honestly that she is really, really happy simply running her own household like she is used to doing and she is managing very well by herself! I can see her being bright and smiling all the time!
For people who want close relationship (especially guys who want parents and wife to have close relationship and keep forcing mom and wife together), I have a piece of advice - Actually keeping them a little separate from each other brings more closeness and happiness and peace of mind to the family!!!! This sounds strange but it is true - distance makes relationships closer!
It seems that only one woman can run a home at a time and putting both together ends up with one feeling good and dominating and the other feeling bad and being insulted, be it MIL or DIL. But keep them separate and both are much happier! When the women are happy, family is happy.
Of course best case would be when both can adjust and live together as equals - but unfortunately reality is such that if you put two women together and both love the same man, one ends up dominating the other and not sharing. But I still think if the roles were reversed and husband has to move to daughter's home after marriage, same would happen and they will end up fighting with daughter's fathers a lot!!
Vimpi, you are saying how women are more insecure than men and I totally agree about how they look to the men for security. But if you think about why women feel insecure???
Both MIL and FIL are old - in fact FIL older but typically MIL is lot more scared than FIL - you know why? Becos FIL only mostly worries about security and little bit of respect. MIL always wants an upper hand i.e constantly needs to know that she is the woman-in-charge. I feel that just like men are power-hungry in the work area, women are power-hungry in the home area. Only difference is once men reach certain age, the office retires them off and says \" go home.\" For women, during the day also we don't have set hours of work (we have to work day-in, day-out, cooking, cleaning, even weekends) but after 65 also there is no retirement scheme or policy.
Of course traditionally there is a retirement system i.e vanaprasta where they have to go for the forest. For taking gifts, asking brides parents to pay for everything, youngsters adjust to older people and all traditions are the key! But things like vanaprasta / going to forest/staying away from children noone follows!! The reason is becos the guy and his family have the \" upper-hand\" or the \" power\" and they exploit the system - I strongly feel it all starts with us giving guys / guys side more power than ladies / ladies side and making them feel over-powerful so they exploit the system! (And want to clarify that doesn't mean not to respect older people etc - only that give equal respect to older people be they guy's side or girl's side - both are old, why the difference in treatment?)
Of course we cannot change the system in our in-law's homes where we have no power, but we can start in our brother's wife's (OUR) home where we have the power....If we go down a little bit there, automatically as a circle it will come around and push us up a little bit in our in-law's place....
This is a strange thing that happened to me - I started treating my SIL well, she supported me and got me gifts, I tried helping my mom as MIL to be supportive of her - you know very funny thing happened - my own in-law situation became better!!! I have seen this in other friends places too - so to women I feel going little lower with the SIL in your home helps ease your own in-law situation! Just as women are women's worst enemies they are also their best friends..Today my SIL and I chat about the common things in our in-laws place and she is to-be-honest closer to me than my brother!!! I think days of bossing around brother's wife and interfering in their life should come to an end since it hurts women who do it more than helps them!....
Here in the US it is mostly the daughters who take care of the parents not the sons. In that case, it seems that lot of guys have lots of problems with their in-laws (And of course, something like \" father of the bride\" is polular ..)
Vimpi, I really enjoyed reading ur email where the thoughts are so similar to mine - one of the simple pleasures of life is to find someone who thinks like you I think???
Thanks Vimpi, Neela.
2006-12-18
#2
Name: vimpi Subject: Couldnt agree more!
Hi Neela,
I am glad we see the issue on the same perspective. I think when one is honest with oneself, one can be honest and fair with the world. Most people have the toughest time being honest with themselves so they have a hard time being honest and fair with another person.
There is nothing so wrong in inlaws and sons families living separately or in older generation preparing themselves to live in retirement homes. This is not such an evil idea as is percieved to be. One has to be open minded enough to accept it as taking a step towards the future instead of saying " this is a western concept, not an Indian one therefore it is a horrible idea" . Living in a retirement community is actually an ancient Indian idea called " vanaprastha" . Practising the principles of non attachment to worldly ties is also a very Indian idea. Somewhere along the way Indians have chosen to reject their own philosophy and have gotten enmeshed in the world of attachment to their sons. More the attachment higher the expectations and this has led to the vicious cycle of unhappiness that families find themselves entrapped in.
As for making people like Maya stand up against the verbal abuse laid out to her, I believe that it is up to people like her to WANT to stand up aginst what is laid out to them. Many women choose to just accept it because they know by standing up against it their marriages will be jeopardised and that is what they see as the ultimate evil! In order for their marriages to survive they need to be able to live within the limits their husbands or inlaws set for them. They prefer living within those limits rather than dare expand those limits. What can you or I do about it?
All I know is that I would never be able to accept those limits for myself. It is for each one to figure out what it is they can accept and what they cannot.
2006-12-11
#3
Name: SR Subject: Hi All
I do not believe Job's chauvanist philosophy has worked for him and his wife. It seems as though Job is turning a blind eye to his wife's unhappiness.. and wants to believe she is very happy.
I don't think he's ever sat down with her and tried to find out what she really may want. And if he has done so.. he's ignored her wishes.
I don't know which woman in this day and age would take such crap.
2006-12-12
#4
Name: vimpi Subject: Neelas points
I like your analysis Neela. I have always maintained that women are each others worst enemies. Most women will tell you they prefer a male boss to a female one. I think the jealousy and insecurity complexes are much stronger in women than men.If ever you have worked under a female boss who percieves you as a threat you will understand. Same goes for MIL DIL.Women look up to men for emotional security. First their fathers then their husbands and last their sons. Often I have seen that MILS act as if their husbands are already dead and they need their son for security. Some take it for granted that they will outlive their husbands and therefore begin to cling to their sons for security. In these cases two women the wife and the mother are clinging to the same guy for security and each tries to push the other out because of feeling insecure due to the others presence.
It is difficult for the mother of a son to see him suddenly lose his dependance on her and begin to depend on an alien woman's affections. This is a universal thing but in India where the parents insist on living with the kids makes it a very suffocating reality and reaches unbearable proportions. It is not as if the MIL DIL problem will go away but it will help a great deal if parents understand that they must let go of a son the same way they let go of a daughter when she is married. Parents must realize they need to hang out with people in their age group and not with their kids. It is all the more unbearable when parents visit kids abroad because all they do is hang out with kids since there is no one else. This exacerbates the MIL DIL situation.
I do not know whether all women repeat their experiences with their own DILS. Many MILS of today who have never even stayed with their own MILS ever, harrass their DILS a lot. I speak from experience. I am one such DIL who has to swallow the venom of one such MIL on a daily basis. The more insecure either the MIL or DIL is, the worse form this MIL - DIL problem manifests itself in.
No one starts out wanting to back answer their MILS but as you get provoked right from the day you get married and as you watch these MILS closely you reach a point where you lose respect for them completely. Yes I respect those women who suffer at the hands of their MIL and swear they will never do it to their DILS. My mom is one person who suffered but she has no DIL to harrass. My dad's mom harrased her like any MIL but one day she told her son and my mom that they should live separately because this MIL DIL situation was inevitable and it just brought out the worst in everyone. Infact she preached to all her sons that they should live separately with their wives and she and my grandpa remained independant right to the very end and never stayed with any son or daughter. That is how honest she was!
I feel if everyone get along it is Ok for people to live together but when there is a constant friction the inlaws should let go the way my grandma did. It is not right to stay and blackmail the son and make his life miserable.
Retirement communities are a must and I see that they are coming up in India this is good thing because that is the only reasonable way. I know people feel repelled at the idea of staying in one of them but it is better to live with dignity than with constant unpleasantness.
Otherwise parents should really practice the principles of vanaprastha and sanyas ashram seriously if they still want to stay with their sons. They must paractice a policy of non inteference in the family affairs be it cooking, bringing up kids or anything else and turn their mind to religion and God. After all this is what Hindu religion preaches. If parents do not follow the Indian values them how can you expect kids to follow them and respect their age etc?
So the solution of easing the problem really lies with the older generation rather than the younger generation even though most older generation people will tell you youngsters must adjust but reality is just the opposite!
2006-12-12
#5
Name: Neela Nagaraj Subject: agree
Hi SR and Xanthia,
The story of Maya is really appalling!!! It is a pity to see people thinking this way in this day and age ..That is the most pitiable thing...Both of you raised very interesting and valid points that are very thought provoking.....
SR, I agree Job's thoughts are chauvinistic and he may be ignoring his wife's wishes but several guys have been helped by friends/outsiders/strangers to open their eyes and change their attitude towards women -Due to the loving words of these friends, a very big change is possible in the way a husband sees things! That is why I felt ignorance may be the reason some guys carry outdated attitudes. Once they are given the story from both sides some guys actually change and become very very supportive, caring and understanding!! Unfortunately sometimes guys are just told the story from one side and become deaf to the other side!
Let me share with you one other thing too that bothers me - Even today women feel very proud when they have sons - women who are well educated, very well-off and are financially independent with rich parents and in-laws feel this way too!!! The problem as you say is because such thoughts are very, very deeply ingrained within - And also the moment the woman has a son, she gains a lot of respect with her in-laws and parental family - which every woman seems to enjoy!
Isn't the reality of the situation such that if you have a son, in today's world, you get the upper hand? - you get to demand what you want. All the earnings of the son (and maybe even DIL) belong to you. You get to be the boss and boss around the girl's parents?
And primarily the women who feel very happy at the birth of a son are the ones who also write in these forums about how their in-laws treat them and their family badly...They have undergone so many humiliations that they don't want their child to undergo it -so they ask and pray for a son! They say that once they have a son, they will be nice MILs. Unfortunately by the time they are ILs, the attitude of being treated as superior becos of having a son has become a habit with them and they cannot change themselves suddenly after feeling like this for 25 years!!
If we can all recognize this cycle would we all feel equally happy be it a son or a daughter even if in-laws and parents make us feel proud that we had a son? By being this exuberant when we have a son, are we by example, portraying to the younger generation that having a son is considered greater than having a daughter? We complain that our in-laws treat us as second-class!! Are we the ones treating ourself as second-class first though? Should we not celebrate the birth of a daughter with great fanfare and prove that we have faith in the power of women like us to change the world since we are ourselves women? - by this can we show the value we place on ourself? How can we expect our in-laws to value us when we don't value our own self?
Should we not tell them and ourselves that be it son or daughter, I want to educate them equally and make them independent?
Be it son or daughter, I want to make sure they pay for half the wedding expense?
Should we tell ourself that be it son or daughter, I want to train myself that I will not depend on them financially when I am old?
Be it son or daughter, I will be a friend, philosopher, guide to them but I will not depend on them for my happiness....
Finally, Should we tell our daughter that I have faith in you, my daughter that you will be a wonderful person with great opportunities ahead of you - when a daughter is born in our family, as a woman, should we not tell everyone about how proud we are that we will have someone to carry on our family values, our family thoughts etc? Tell everyone about how we women bring in sensitivity and heart into the family? Be as proud of our daughter as our in-laws are about their sons!!!
But by the time our kids grow up, parents seem to become very needy and emotionally dependent on our children.
Some women who have suffered a lot at the hands of in-laws and given in to their demands wait and plan for a long,long time to get an opportunity to boss their DIL around - this is the ground reality it seems. (But I deeply admire the exceptional women who have undergone much from in-laws but make it a point not to repeat it - they are THE MOST CHARITABLE AND NOBLE of all people and my deepest admiration is to them - but such noble people are rare it seems)
Finally with MIL, we can say it is a generation gap. What is very pathetic to see from this forum is so many SILs behaving in such a manner - even though they belong to the newer generation, are going through these same issues themselves.
Do we women watch our in-laws place such tough standards on us but do we gang up with the MIL to gain an " upper hand" over the new DIL, boss over her, put her down and create problems? Do we place impossible standards on our SIL too?
In fact many times, SILs seem to be worse than the MILs themselves! This is really terrible becos we seem to have forgetten that what goes around comes around! We talk about our husbands drawing lines with their parents and sisters but do we draw these lines with our own brothers? Do we tell our brothers to treat their wives as first priority? Do we look at the mistakes made by our SIL as small or do we always feel that we do more for our in-laws than she does for our parents? When our mothers tell us problems with her, do we try and support her or do we judge her harshly and propogate the myth that she is the villian of the family?
How can we explain all this to people? How can we make people like Maya stand up against her in-law's irrational and silly expectations? and make her stand up for these opinions? Or should we tell her to ignore for the sake of " family peace" ? Will she be a good MIL when she is older or will she have the same expectations from her DIL? What role if any, does her husband play in this?
I don't know....Are we women being our own enemies? Any ideas about this, please do share with me since I feel that this forum has been a great place for me to learn so much from other women about how to cope and change my outlook.
Hope to hear from u all....Neela
2006-12-11
#6
Name: xanthia Subject: No wonder!
When Job claims he is the only one conducting a healthy discussion he nust be doing the same to his wife. " Honey, I agree to many points but you see I am discussing the issue and though I understand you are right you are merely debating the issue. So you are happy because I say that will be happy only by believing what I believe and that is you are a woman therefore the weaker sex" .
I realize there may be a lot of women in India who may accept his philosophy and accept their husbands definition of happiness. Let me give you an example which is a real example:
My friend Maya is married to family where the inlaws live with her. Maya is very fair by Indian standards but her husband's family is dark complexioned. When Maya delivered a boy her family rejoiced and so did she. The next time she was expecting a girl and was sent home to her Mother's place for the delivery with an admonishment from her MIL " Agar ladki gori nahi paida hui to mera beta tumhe sasuraal vapas nahin bulayega" So when Maya delivered the girl the first thing she asked her mother was " Gori hai ki nahin?" and her mother replied " Arre pagli woh to phirangiyon se bhee gori hai" . Maya burst into tears of relief. When I expressed shock at her story and asked her how she put up with such crap especially since the fair genes came from her and not her husbands family she said. " My inlaws went through hell trying to marry off their saawli daughter and had to pay heavy dowry etc. They do not want their son to go through the same for his daughter so we believe if one has a daughter she should be fair but if one has a boy his looks do not matter. Now I know my husband will come to take me back to my sasuraal"
Attitudes like Job's still exist in Indian society and there are women who consider themselves lucky to be married at all so they will go along with the crap their husband's dish out.
No wonder India is the only country where brides are burnt, female fetuses aborted and even though Indians claim they have a very superior culture as compared to the west. no where will you find this craze for the " gori" complexion evne though the most " gori" Indian is only a lighter shade of brown!
No wonder the British could rule us. No wonder Indians flock to western countries in large numbers and refuse to return to India inspite of claiming they have a suprior culture! No where in the west will you hear of a bride being burnt or A MIL harassing her DIL. There are laws which protect you from mental harrasment and bullying. India needs such laws.
The senior generation in western countries live in retirement communities and they are happy. A lot of them immerse themselves in social work. In India with its immense poverty there is immense scope for social work but do you see anyone even interested in it?
Yet this Indians claim is the most superior culture int the world!
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& Answers to Topic : Job's Chauvinism
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I feel that my husbands parents are using their son. My husband is from India and I am from the USA. He obtained his greencard and citizenship through me after coming here. He is a physician and obtained his residency training. I worked to earn for our family for two years until he got his job. Then he applied for his parents to visit us on a visiting visa. We were both wo... - Tina Shah [View Message]
RE:self centered inlaws
I agree they have completely double standards as I recently found out. I saw my husbands childhood photos when he was young. His parents claim they sacrificed everything for their kids and lived poor and behave like martyr parents. Got treated as free domestic servant. But the photos showed them dressed like Bollywood stars with watches and jewellery enjoying their life. O... - Tina [View Message]
RE:self centered inlaws
Karma has no menu. You get served what you deserve. ... - Tina [View Message]
RE:Jadu on food?
Hi , I am facing the same thing.. I married my husband and we are not only from different caste but also different country. My in-laws are so nice to me on face but I can sense the jealousy and that inferiority majorly in my mother in law and my sister in law.. I never had such doubts but I experienced pain sadness , depression while they use to be nice .. and it was confu... - Noname [View Message]
RE:Mother-in-law spoiling my child
hello kajal,
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RE:Mother-in-law spoiling my child
hello kajal,
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RE:Mother-in-law spoiling my child
hello kajal,
if you are rudely talking with her, then this is not way to talking with your mother in law, you tell her in polite way, your son is her grand son, so she never think about his bad effects.... - ruchita [View Message]
Strange but true...
Name: vimpi
Couldnt agree more!
Hi All
agree
No wonder!
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